The Pope Asked About Russia - Adam D. Rotfeld, the Polish foreign minister talks about his conversation with Pope John Paul II in an interview granted to the Polish Press Agency's Monika Kielesińska and Anna Widzyk (excerpts).

It will soon be a year since Poland joined the European Union. The pope's role in the EU enlargement was invaluable. Could history have taken a slightly different course without the Holy Father?

This is a hypothetical question in a sense. John Paul II's influence on Poland's integration with the EU was incomparably greater than we realize. It began not from the moment that Poland applied for EU accession, but from 1979 when the pope appeared in what was then Zwycięstwa (Victory) Square (today's Piłsudskiego Square) in Warsaw, and even before that when he was elected.

John Paul II attached huge importance to the continent's unification. The thing is, Europe isn't just a geographical concept, but primarily a community of values, a community of nations, civilization and related cultures. Christianity played a decisive role here. From the pope's viewpoint, it was therefore important to restore the unity of Christianity, divided since 1054.

The pope's impact on EU enlargement should therefore be viewed in this broad context. Otherwise we would be reducing John Paul II's influence to the role of a politician. The pope, meanwhile, avoided this kind of approach. He only spoke out at decisive moments. When Poland's European aspirations needed support prior to the accession referendum, the pope decided that an appropriate, general formula needed to be found, one that would not leave any doubt as to his support for Poland's integration with the rest of Europe.

The most important remark came in Gniezno in 1997, when he spoke about the two lungs eastern and western with which Europe should breathe. His dream was for the eastern lung to be as important as the western one.

The pope wasn't heeded when he appealed that the Christian roots of Europe be reflected in the EU constitution. Could this issue be raised again now, during ratification of the EU constitution?

Though I didn't talk about this with the pope, I won't be far wrong if I say that he certainly didn't attach such great importance to this as many of us did. The role of the Church is in fact secured in article 52 of the Treaty.

Failing to mention the Christian roots in the preamble to the EU Constitutional Treaty means, on one hand, simply ignoring the obvious, because without these roots Europe would be no more than a geographical name. On the other hand, though, one needs to show understanding for the lay tradition of, for example, France and other countries whose stance is different from ours. Our situation is different because Poland was partitioned and the Church played a uniting role, keeping together a nation deprived of independence.

Today, the solution could be for the Sejm to ratify the EU Constitutional Treaty and at the same time pass a separate Polish declaration, such as was proposed in 2003 by Znak Foundation President Stefan Wilkanowicz, ex-PM Tadeusz Mazowiecki and Poland's former chief negotiator with the EU Jan Kułakowski (the proposal mentions "the value of Christian civilization, the fundamental source of our identity"). This would be our political statement, explaining how we understand the Treaty's provisions. I am convinced that regardless of who will have the majority in the future Sejm, this document could be passed unanimously.

The pope always thought of Europe as a single entity. However, he never fulfilled his great dream-he never visited Russia. Do you really think the main, real reason was the opposition of the Russian Orthodox Church?

Yes, there is no question of that. In December 1999, I had the honor of being invited to a private audience with Pope John Paul II. I thought we would be talking about the issues I was involved in at the time: international security, arms control. Meanwhile, the pope was mainly interested in Russia and the eastern churches and that was the focus of our talks.

The Holy Father asked me in great detail about the Russians' attitude to Mikhail Gorbachev. I said Gorbachev was perceived negatively in Russia, people were blaming him for their very tough living conditions. The pope said to that: "What a shame, as this is truly a great figure in Russia's history, he led the nation out of an inhuman regime." I agreed that he had a prominent place assured in the history of Russia. He was the first leader to achieve a transformation and started the systemic changes but didn't allow any bloodshed.

However, I voiced my doubts as to whether he had wanted to lead the nation out of an inhuman regime. Because, not only in 1999 but even now, Gorbachev thinks the Soviet system should have been preserved, only it should have been adjusted, made more liberal. At that, the pope smiled and said: "Do you mean to say he wanted to build socialism with a human face?", referring to Alexander Dubcek's slogan from 1968 [in Czechoslovakia]. I nodded and said, "Exactly." Then the pope added: "Even so..."

I remarked at the end of this part of the conversation: "Holy Father, I think the things that happened were possible because Gorbachev was led more by the 'Hand of Providence' than his own will. He wanted something else. Even so, he has a place in the history of Russia because he decided not to use force." This was probably the most important conversation I have ever had with anybody in my life.

We need to remember that the Russian Orthodox Church was destroyed and persecuted by the Soviet authorities, and penetrated exceptionally zealously by the special services. The church in Russia is a conservative force, but at the same time the Orthodox Church has a huge tradition of spirituality. All that happened over the many years when the Orthodox Church was destroyed also requires many years to be rebuilt. The Orthodox Church feels weak. The Catholic Church is strong, well organized and, most importantly, it is also attractive to young people. I think this is the main reason why the Orthodox hierarchs are afraid of ecumenism. A stronger Orthodox Church would be much more open to dialogue. As the spirituality of the Orthodox Church strengthens, it will become much more open to talks. (...)